pofinterest_chat | Episode Discussion 3x10

Oh, God. I don't know about anyone else, but I am delerious. I feel like the show is back. This was magnificent. I loved the flashbacks, the way they were shot, Reese being so hurt... and Finch all worried about him, going to Root for him. And Fusco! And Shaw!! and Elias and Scarface!!!

God, I am happy again.

So the first halfish of the ep where we centered hardcore on Reese's manpain, I was pretty eye-rolly about it all. There were some good bits--like Shaw basically joining in with the free-for-all because fuck it, dude killed CARTER, fuck that noise, and the various flashbacks were pretty great stuff. (Shaw used to be a doctor? Huh. Though that whole fixing/healing dichotomy the other dude was pushing was kinda like, whaaaaaaaaaa and felt a little gross, ngl.) I liked the ep more as it went on, and FUSCO BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF SIMMONS. I'm relieved they focused more on his affection for Carter as a partner rather than hitting us over the head with Reese's ~feelings~, given last week's ep. And I have to say I fucking CHEERED when Elias popped up in the shadows and he let Scarface garrote that fucker. I'm quite glad THEY'RE the ones who ended up killing him. It felt...satisfactory. It wasn't out of rage or guilt or depression, and yet neither was it out of detachment. Elias said "debt," and I think that's a good word for it. The whole scene felt weighty without being bogged down in bullshit.

OMG, the guy talking to Shaw was terrible. *seethes* But yeah, in hindsight I'm kind of amused by her understatement -- wasn't her original line about her medical training that she was in med school for "a bit"?

I did like her outrage over Carter's murder. She looked so impassive standing next to Finch, but not for lack of caring, no.

Right? Kelly and I were all WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT about it. Just. What. But lol yeah, oh Shaw. Master of understatement, apparently! XD

Hell, Finch himself was pretty impassive throughout it all. Not to her degree, but there were some definite walls up.

Harold Finch: Very Private Person. His openly unhappy expression at the funeral was the equivalent of quiet sobbing from almost anyone else.

What gets me, though, is the moment where he basically tells Shaw that yes, obviously they need to let Root out, but can't they freak out about it for a minute first? Because as cautious as he is, when he sees the need for action, he can usually be counted on to act decisively -- and yet here he was spinning his wheels.

I actually feel that each of the interviews/interrogations/therapy sessions were more symbolic and a reflection of their own ID talking back to them. The narrow focused lighting, the disembodied voices, the cold, claustrophobic rooms, the ugly truths and thoughts about themselves....

This is what THEY thought about THEMSELVES. This is their take on what they ARE. Or, thankfully in Fusco's case, what he WAS.

Reese's was most disturbing. He could have taken down that man at any time--waiting served no purpose, he didn't reveal himself for a traitor during the talk. But he allowed the man to spell out what things Reese was willing to do, what horrifying depths he knew he could or even had already sunk to. He wasn't upset by it. He embraced the darkness for the cause and did it one better.

It's interesting that it seems that while Fusco has decided he will change, Reese hasn't really felt he has yet, and he's not quite willing to give it up. It's been there the whole time.

I actually feel that each of the interviews/interrogations/therapy sessions were more symbolic and a reflection of their own ID talking back to them. The narrow focused lighting, the disembodied voices, the cold, claustrophobic rooms, the ugly truths and thoughts about themselves....

Yeah, that totally makes the most sense to me. Especially considering Fusco's.

OMG, that's such an interesting way of looking at it. I wonder what to make of the fact that Finch had questions for his.

When I saw the opening scene I thought, "It's fanfic come to life!" I thought I could hear the sqee from across the land. Can't comment on much else, though; my sister had the volume so low I could hear very little. Loved Fusco beating up Simmons. That part I didn't need to hear!

I'm filled with ennui.

Which is funny, because I actually had hopes for this episode, sort of. The hope that Reese wouldn't let a guy burn to death in the back of a car, for example.

I mean, they did the whole "Carter's memory deserves better than this" thing? But after the murder and torture and shooting of US Marshals doing honorable jobs and police brutality, it didn't ring so true to me.

This is me having trouble with the conventions of the genre again, isn't it?

Also I just really miss her.

Favorite part: Probably Root's expression of are you fucking kidding me, Harold as he locked the door to the Faraday cage. Is it bad that I feel like she's the most reasonable one on the show right now?

Also I just really miss her.

Ugh, me too. I'm still carrying around that simmering anger that they ACTUALLY KILLED HER OFF AND IN THE WORST WAY POSSIBLE, ngl. This episode was just less outrageously GOING TO MURDER EVERYTHING about it, which is what adds to the relieved-feeling, I think. It may just be in comparison, will have to wait and see.

The hope that Reese wouldn't let a guy burn to death in the back of a car, for example.

What? You missed the episodes where Reese killed other people with less provocation? He's no boyscout. And the guy in the car wasn't exactly without sin. And he didn't murder or torture any U.S. Marshalls. He kneecapped them and they will live. From his viewpoint, they were in this way and I really doubt they'd've happily told a guy who was unshaven and bleeding out and with that look in his eyes, "you want to talk to Quinn? Sure, come on." Not putting down your reaction, just trying to explain why I wasn't surprised by Reese's actions.

This is me having trouble with the conventions of the genre again, isn't it?

Maybe.

Edited 2013-11-27 06:13 (UTC)

I'm not sure Reese even kneecapped any Marshals -- he seemed to be going to special efforts to be gentle with them, blinding them with the flares and then putting them down mostly with his fists. It's Shaw who shot at least one. The police brutality, of course, was Fusco.

It's cool if you weren't surprised. Obviously Reese has done all kinds of horrible stuff before. Sometimes it upsets me more, sometimes it upsets me less. In the wake of Carter's death, in the same episode where they're trying to draw some kind of moral line, is one of the more times.

But I'm really not trying to dictate anyone else's reactions. In retrospect, my subject line could come across as sarcastic, but that's really not how I meant it -- I don't want to bring down anybody's mood.

I'm not sure Reese even kneecapped any Marshals -- he seemed to be going to special efforts to be gentle with them, blinding them with the flares and then putting them down mostly with his fists.

Yes, I agree. That's why I found your comment about the murder and torture of them to be sort of out of left field. Yes, Shaw shot one (and as she told Fusco, not her first) and Fusco exercised police brutality. Oh, and thinking about it, it would have been less detrimental to him physically if he had just kneecapped them instead of punching them. He was bleeding already but that exertion didn't help and the blood was really steaming by the time he got to Quinn.

Sometimes it upsets me more, sometimes it upsets me less. Yes, that's a personal thing. LIke when a lot of people were upset about him leaving the gun with the husband who'd faked his death so he would have one to go with the one Reese had given the wife. Some viewers were really pissed at him and upset and felt it was him okaying them killing each other.

in the same episode where they're trying to draw some kind of moral line
But it was Finch and Fusco who were drawing the moral line. Reese was in no mood, and no shape physically, to do so. He was going to kill Quinn, but Finch talking him out of it and his gun was empty. And on my re-watch I checked what Fusco said about the guys in the car -- though I can't quote him exactly but it was that they were "lowest of the low" kind of dirt bags, into all sorts of crimes along with providing Simmons with his new fake passport so he could leave the country. And I think maybe Reese just didn't think too much about whether the guy was trapped in the burning car or not when he walked on after getting his info.

But I'm really not trying to dictate anyone else's reactions. Me either. Hope I didn't come off that way. It's all good. We've all been through the wringer these last couple of weeks. I did see some rather surprising reactions on Tumblr before I came here so that may have affected my reading of your comment. Many sides to this coin: there was one who was really pissed and let down apparently because Reese didn't kill both Quinn and Simmons.

My utter relief at seeing Finch and Reese in the same room and a script that finally felt like the POI of first season when it was so edgy and angsty and amazing colored my reaction overall. Those who were more invested in Carter (not that I didn't love her but she wasn't central to me) probably wouldn't have found everything to their liking in this ep.

Edited (added something I forgot, changed icon) 2013-11-27 11:31 (UTC)

Oh, now I see -- I'm sorry, that was supposed to be "[murder] and [torture] and [shooting of US Marshals]", not "[murder and torture and shooting] of US Marshals". My sentence structure could have been more clear.

I agree that Reese wasn't drawing much of any moral line this episode. The problem I have is, I feel like we were supposed to think that because he didn't shoot Quinn, he's been saved from his own worst instincts and everything is basically fine, but to me, all the things he did before then were already bad enough. I wasn't trying to single him out, either: Fusco did draw a line, and he's one of the characters whose behavior I'm upset about.

I do think you're right that Reese abandoned the men in the car out of indifference rather than active malice.

It's definitely been a rocky season for a lot of fans -- I know it has been for me. So I'm glad we can have different takes on an episode without adding to the stress by taking it out on each other. :)

It was like Dead Reckoning, when John told Mark Snow that the guards were just doing their jobs, and he wasn't going to kill them. He beat up several marshals on his way in and out of the office in Many Happy Returns but didn't kill any of them. He tear-gassed Donnelly and the other FBI agents in the SUV in Root Cause.

At the end, you mean? Someone pointed out that every other time he's opened and shut the cage, they've lingered on the lock. This time, no lock. I don't know why he shut the bolt, but I will not at all be surprised if she's wandering around the library in Lethe with only wary side glances her way.

Oh, that's interesting, thank you for pointing that out! Huh.

I, for one, am fairly happy with the episode. Actually, pretty damned happy. I think they did it a solid.
Not that this forgives the crap fest that happened last week.
Running late to work so can't post much ahhhhhhh
But I loved how they wrapped it up, with Elias. I love how Fusco got to finally be the good guy, I loved how despite all my fears it wasn't entirely about Reese's man!pain, I loved how Finch made that call with Root for John.
FEELINGS.
More words from me later!

I must be out of step. Everywhere I go I see complaints about Reese suffering
man!pain. Why is this wrong and why is it surprising for a character who has done and seen and killed as much as he has? Why is it a bad thing to have a male character suffer these days? Especially on this show which certainly isn't a light hearted romp every week about saving some unfortunate number and then Reese having all the happy feels.

I know I'm in the "older fan" demographic but this would have been the highlight for me and my peers back in the day. (Case in point, Starsky's girlfriend was shot by a bad guy and lingered through the episode, dying on screen at the end, and we didn't even mind he loved her and nor that we had just met her in that episode, cause Hutch was right there in tears along with him and they both suffered the man!pain in that and many episodes. It's still considered a top ep today and I've never seen anyone in that fandom, even the newer, younger fans deploring the male characters' angst.) Reese was bleeding out, suffering silently, wincing manfully and not one word was said along the lines of "oh, I'm so crushed cause my love is dead!" so why the furor over this?

It is the repetition? He said he was happy mid season two so this means he can't have any more pain no matter what happens now? Is it just because of it being Carter being fridged to caus his pain? Or just in general? Even before Carter died I was seeing comments around fandom about how the "while male characters man!pain" was not what they were watching for. Should it be all about the female pain being showcased, is that more fair or feminist? It wouldn't ring true to me if Reese was a stoic cardboard character who never flinched or couldn't be hurt emotionally. It makes me feel as though some might consider that my -- what? appreciation? -- should be considered some kind of character flaw on my part.

This deserves a better response than I have time to give it right on my lunch break, but in sum...

His man!pain is a problem for me when it oversteps the other aspects of the show. I was worried it would be worse than it was. Character angst is one thing, man!pain from a character who was killed specifically to give a character this man!pain is another. It's cheap writing. It's flattening things out, over simplifying them, and fitting them into a very overused trope. And, quite frankely, killing a woman to do it is a total game changer. Why should I care about Reese's man!pain more than anything else? Luckily, the episode featured other characters reacting too, in a way I was very happy about. I expected, from the promos, it to be much more about him. I'm glad it wasn't. Carter was important and dear to all of them, and I'm glad they acknowledged that.

Speaking for myself and in general, it's not that I'm deploring the male characters. I like them fine. I like them quite a lot, actually. And Reese and Finch in the scene with Quinn was beautiful and I was so happy for it. I like a good dose of angst just fine. But when it's at the expense of the women (Carter, Jessica, Grace), at the expense of the arcs and plot development, when it's a walking cliche, I start to give no shits, and I start to get angry. We can do better than this. Reese can too.

:)

Yes, that much I understand, and back in the 70s with Starsky's murdered girl of the week, it was already a cliche (you've heard of the Bonanza syndrome) but even though she was not only killed for him to suffer, she was created for that purpose. We were weaker then, as fans, I suppose. We acknowledge the flaws in the episode now, but still, nobody says "I hate that episode cause it was all contrived for Starsky's man!pain." FWIW. (they do refer to her as "Saint Terry" lol)

What's interesting is that while a lot of us feel that it wasn't overdone in The Devil's Share and that it was a tribute to the feelings of all the team, others complain that there wasn't "enough" reaction on Reese's part or that we weren't shown him talking about it or sobbing or something so that there wasn't a "payoff" -- and how many fans thought Finch had no reaction whatsoever (his sad face was the same as someone else falling on the ground crying)! This show has for over 2 years now specialized in not putting everything on the screen and leaving stuff for our imagination. We don't need to see Reese punch a guy to know it happened when we see the baddie fall through a plate glass window. Knowing Reese was off looking for Quinn and taking no prisoners while shot himself tells me he was suffering, yet I think some wanted it all out there specified, which would have cheapened it more. For many fans, especially those who held Carter most dear, sadly, it will never be right or enough.

I guess no matter how much we love Fusco, killing him instead wouldn't affect Reese in the same way, even if he was mad about it. And we can't lose Finch, plus we've seen how Reese reacts to him being in danger already. I do agree that they could and should write in such a way that the angst for Reese, or any of the male characters, is organic and not "how do we hurt him this week?"

Thanks for taking time on your lunch to reply. Now for me, it's back to that turkey in my oven.

Episode Discussion 3x10

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sorry to rain on the relieved-and-pleased parade

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